From phma at phma.optus.nu Wed Feb 4 22:45:03 2009 From: phma at phma.optus.nu (Pierre Abbat) Date: Wed Feb 4 08:12:34 2009 Subject: [Charlug] Anyone else going to Penguicon? Message-ID: <200902042245.03672.phma@phma.optus.nu> http://www.penguicon.org/events.php Some events you may be interested in: Beginning Pygame Programming Camp Unix Intro to Computer Music Intro to Linux Open Hardware HOWTO Spammers are Stupid Troubleshooting Tools for Linux System Administration UNIX for the Beginning Mage Pierre From bobevans19 at gmail.com Sun Feb 8 06:31:57 2009 From: bobevans19 at gmail.com (Bob Evans) Date: Sat Feb 7 15:59:09 2009 Subject: [Charlug] WTF?? Message-ID: <7c5cd1190902080331ua2a7a61g8896066559c6b3f0@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Doug Pyatt Date: Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 9:08 AM Subject: h1b visa To: Bob Evans It seems that companies are laying off americans and keeping the H1B visa employess even in this economy. we need to fight... As the MercuryNews points out, Silicon Valley companies and other organizations are vying to keep these workers here in the States, while some in Congress publicly suggest that companies like Microsoft, which just had layoffs, should let go H-1B visa holders before Americans are put out of a job. link to whole article http://blog.baselinemag.com/bottom_line/content/careers/h1-b_visa_holders_n= ot_immune_from_pink_slips_deportation.html?kc=3DCIOMINUTE02062009CIO2 Thanks Douglas Pyatt Estimator / IT Manager 704-926-1680 tel 704-333-6521 fax dpyatt@burgesssales.com -- = The great thing about democracy is that it gives every voter a chance to do something stupid. - Art Spander -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://charlug.org/pipermail/charlug/attachments/20090208/6d979480/att= achment.htm From leam at reuel.net Sun Feb 8 07:10:52 2009 From: leam at reuel.net (Leam Hall) Date: Sat Feb 7 16:38:09 2009 Subject: [Charlug] H1B vs American jobs In-Reply-To: <7c5cd1190902080331ua2a7a61g8896066559c6b3f0@mail.gmail.com> References: <7c5cd1190902080331ua2a7a61g8896066559c6b3f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <498ECBCC.9060002@reuel.net> All, let's get over the protectionism big government offers. If the current financial situation hasn't clearly communicated how illusory "government" and "market forces" are, then you really need to be thinking about such things. Here's the real issue; we want ice cream but don't want to farm. We want police protection but eliminate justice by disempowering the legal system. We want to be paid for doing what we did yesterday when today is a totally different world. I have been out of a job for 5 months. Trusting that things will be the same and tomorrow is the day to start preparing has put me in a good place. Yeah, you read that right,life is better! I see with greater clarity; I've had to sell old dreams and found renewed joy in what remains. When Soloman's Proverbs describe the foolish man, there I was! So much yet to learn and it breaks my heart to think that even what I do know others have yet to understand. Avoid learning the hard way! Value people, not things. Build skills, not debt. Serve; follow when you can and lead if you have to. Leam --I used to be young and foolish, but am no longer young... Bob Evans wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > It seems that companies are laying off americans and keeping the H1B visa > employess even in this economy. > we need to fight... > > As the MercuryNews points out, Silicon Valley companies and other > organizations are vying to keep these workers here in the States, while some > in Congress publicly suggest that companies like Microsoft, which just had > layoffs, > should let go H-1B visa holders before Americans are put out of a job. > > link to whole article > > http://blog.baselinemag.com/bottom_line/content/careers/h1-b_visa_holders_not_immune_from_pink_slips_deportation.html?kc=CIOMINUTE02062009CIO2 > From peter.senft at hpss.de Sun Feb 8 18:15:24 2009 From: peter.senft at hpss.de (Peter Senft) Date: Sun Feb 8 03:42:48 2009 Subject: [Charlug] WTF?? In-Reply-To: <7c5cd1190902080331ua2a7a61g8896066559c6b3f0@mail.gmail.com> References: <7c5cd1190902080331ua2a7a61g8896066559c6b3f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <498F678C.4060103@hpss.de> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, I really thought about this mail. And I am still not sure if it is good to answer because I am still too emotionally affected by it. I feel *again* reminded of a time when an Austrian guy ruled Germany and some dark mindset was planted in the brains of people. Everybody wanted "Deutschland den Deutschen!" (translates: Germany for the Germans!). We all know what happened then... What I hear from that senator sounds very pretty much the same. And *nobody* in politics criticizes him! THIS IS SCARY! In addition this senator should think about his request first and do his homework. Visa holders by law shall be treated equally to a US citizen. So there is no visa holders first possible until somebody changes the laws! But hey, every politician lies more or less all the time and it seems that it is so common for them to break laws that they suggest it for everybody else. People get real. You try to work on some symptoms and not on the cause. You live in a capitalistic country where greed is considered good. These companies are greedy and they give a shit about people. All they care about is money. But hey, let them lay off all the foreign workers. I want to see the US workers that is willing to do these job for the salary that the H-1B's got! These people are needed to hold the economy up and running! But with all this pressure these companies think now more about outsourcing. *That* will help laying off all the visa holders *and* the US citizens and still the company wins. Think about it... cu hps - -- /"\ | Peter Senft \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | E-Mail : peter.senft@hpss.de X against HTML mail | FIDO : 2:2476/847.34 / \ | ICQ : 62090394 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkmPZ4wACgkQ8C47DFW4ANNqvACfcKkz5g89QCGIsTHE6WrUj+ta BWoAnizXoVGGHnXNjrArggi5gU8rgt+P =DZqh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jason at rampaginggeek.com Sun Feb 8 20:28:05 2009 From: jason at rampaginggeek.com (Jason Edgecombe) Date: Sun Feb 8 05:55:10 2009 Subject: [Charlug] WTF?? In-Reply-To: <498F678C.4060103@hpss.de> References: <7c5cd1190902080331ua2a7a61g8896066559c6b3f0@mail.gmail.com> <498F678C.4060103@hpss.de> Message-ID: <498F86A5.5050602@rampaginggeek.com> Peter Senft wrote: > Hi, > > I really thought about this mail. And I am still not sure if it is good > to answer because I am still too emotionally affected by it. > > I feel *again* reminded of a time when an Austrian guy ruled Germany and > some dark mindset was planted in the brains of people. Everybody wanted > "Deutschland den Deutschen!" (translates: Germany for the Germans!). We > all know what happened then... What I hear from that senator sounds very > pretty much the same. And *nobody* in politics criticizes him! THIS IS > SCARY! > > In addition this senator should think about his request first and do his > homework. Visa holders by law shall be treated equally to a US citizen. > So there is no visa holders first possible until somebody changes the > laws! But hey, every politician lies more or less all the time and it > seems that it is so common for them to break laws that they suggest it > for everybody else. > > People get real. You try to work on some symptoms and not on the cause. > You live in a capitalistic country where greed is considered good. These > companies are greedy and they give a shit about people. All they care > about is money. But hey, let them lay off all the foreign workers. I > want to see the US workers that is willing to do these job for the > salary that the H-1B's got! These people are needed to hold the economy > up and running! But with all this pressure these companies think now > more about outsourcing. *That* will help laying off all the visa holders > *and* the US citizens and still the company wins. There is another downside to sending the H1-B's home. We're sending well-trained professionals out of the US and they will be competing against instead of helping us. I think the whole H1-B program is unfair to the visa holders. I say scrap the program and roll all of the visas into a permanent visa and raise the cap of permanent visas to accomodate the H1-B's. If companies want to recruit people from abroad, let them stay permanently and switch companies if desired. Let the immigrants bring over their families so that they will stay and increase the brain pool and work pool. Jason From nezticle at gmail.com Mon Feb 9 07:15:36 2009 From: nezticle at gmail.com (Andy Nichols) Date: Sun Feb 8 16:42:41 2009 Subject: [Charlug] WTF?? In-Reply-To: <498F86A5.5050602@rampaginggeek.com> References: <7c5cd1190902080331ua2a7a61g8896066559c6b3f0@mail.gmail.com> <498F678C.4060103@hpss.de> <498F86A5.5050602@rampaginggeek.com> Message-ID: <17a9cfb50902090415r68d91745ue7994ff995d85704@mail.gmail.com> Hi, This should not be taken as a call to arms, but rather a wake up call to those failing to adapt to our new situation. We live in a world without borders now thanks to our use technology. Those who still live with those artificial boundaries in mind are the ones who will fall behind. You are no longer a citizen of America, but a citizen of the world. These companies have the right idea, these H1-B visa workers have the right idea, but those of you who are rejecting this surely must know that this battle is futile. I have since moved from Charlotte to Oslo, Norway for this very reason. You go where the work is and you can't afford not to adapt in a world of change. On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 2:28 AM, Jason Edgecombe wr= ote: > Peter Senft wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I really thought about this mail. And I am still not sure if it is good >> to answer because I am still too emotionally affected by it. >> >> I feel *again* reminded of a time when an Austrian guy ruled Germany and >> some dark mindset was planted in the brains of people. Everybody wanted >> "Deutschland den Deutschen!" (translates: Germany for the Germans!). We >> all know what happened then... What I hear from that senator sounds very >> pretty much the same. And *nobody* in politics criticizes him! THIS IS >> SCARY! >> >> In addition this senator should think about his request first and do his >> homework. Visa holders by law shall be treated equally to a US citizen. >> So there is no visa holders first possible until somebody changes the >> laws! But hey, every politician lies more or less all the time and it >> seems that it is so common for them to break laws that they suggest it >> for everybody else. >> >> People get real. You try to work on some symptoms and not on the cause. >> You live in a capitalistic country where greed is considered good. These >> companies are greedy and they give a shit about people. All they care >> about is money. But hey, let them lay off all the foreign workers. I >> want to see the US workers that is willing to do these job for the >> salary that the H-1B's got! These people are needed to hold the economy >> up and running! But with all this pressure these companies think now >> more about outsourcing. *That* will help laying off all the visa holders >> *and* the US citizens and still the company wins. >> > There is another downside to sending the H1-B's home. We're sending > well-trained professionals out of the US and they will be competing again= st > instead of helping us. > > I think the whole H1-B program is unfair to the visa holders. I say scrap > the program and roll all of the visas into a permanent visa and raise the > cap of permanent visas to accomodate the H1-B's. If companies want to > recruit people from abroad, let them stay permanently and switch companies > if desired. Let the immigrants bring over their families so that they will > stay and increase the brain pool and work pool. > > Jason > _______________________________________________ > CharLUG mailing list > CharLUG@charlug.org > http://charlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/charlug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://charlug.org/pipermail/charlug/attachments/20090209/94f23f1c/att= achment.htm From timjowers at gmail.com Mon Feb 9 09:32:47 2009 From: timjowers at gmail.com (Tim Jowers) Date: Sun Feb 8 18:59:50 2009 Subject: [Charlug] WTF?? In-Reply-To: <17a9cfb50902090415r68d91745ue7994ff995d85704@mail.gmail.com> References: <7c5cd1190902080331ua2a7a61g8896066559c6b3f0@mail.gmail.com> <498F678C.4060103@hpss.de> <498F86A5.5050602@rampaginggeek.com> <17a9cfb50902090415r68d91745ue7994ff995d85704@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I think the drawdown in American pay and pricing is a positive force for Linux. How can a company justify spending $800K for Oracle BEA WebLogic, $70K for an AIX or SunOS server, or even $10K-$50K for a Microsoft suite of proprietary lock-in ware? It sickened me when I worked with the 12th largest company in the USA to see them laying off staff in America only to blow money on stuff like this. I emailed the VP and she had a study done. I talked to the Oracle guru about his study: he referenced a 4 year old study comparing MySQL and Oracle and never even installed MySQL! I talked to the engineer who did the WebLogic versus JBoss study and he was the sysadm and basically just wanted to keep the status quo regardless of the net mal-investment of millions across the corporation. Saved him a week or two of learning! In the case of WebLogic it was especially sickening since we already were using JBoss in tandem in the network at numerous sites and we were not using any of the proprietary WebLogic lock-in technologies so could have migrated to JBoss in a week. Heck, RHAT even has a migration kit which we could have used! (Another group wrote their own migration guide.) As a professional programmer, I'm constantly frustrated with Winblows. I do all of my development on Linux (Fedora or Ubuntu, don't care which) unless I am forced to slow down and use the jalopy. As the economy continues to tighten, this waste of $300 for 'blows and orifice or whatever and the bigger waste of time will start to stand out I think. Andy, You are correct. Doctors and Lawyers have used licensing and laws to prevent competition on the world scene. As professionals with comparable training and workload, we are frustrated with YoY industry average pay declines. Without protectionist measures such as those employed by doctors, lawyers, and other engineers, we will continue the asymptotic landing of the Iron Law of Wages. Of course we can specialize in certain technologies and certain company needs. Longer term, however, for our children, we have to realize the Aluminum Law of Pricing is a direct offspring of the Iron Law of Wages. My guess is the USA is at the precipice of pricing. No matter how hard Congress tries to increase credit, pay is falling and this is a natural outcome of globalization like you said. Most people think Congress will start printing physical currency but the in real value terms pay will continue to obey the Iron Law of Wages (that's why it's a Law). Pricing will adjust accordingly (The Aluminum Law of Pricing). This is what GM fails to accept. They are competing with Kia and Hyundai -- well, should be but instead choose to not sell cars and to let their business collapse while Hyundai's sales are actually increasing. People who are making less money have to buy lower priced autos. As to the H1B and L1 visas, I worked at one place where a person had been on an L1 visa for 7 years. He was afraid to even ask HCL for an H1 as he thought they'd make him leave the USA! I tried to get him to switch to another bodyshop but HCL had him on a tight leash. The H1B and L1 visa programs have zero enforcement on the federal requirements. We know in everything the government does there is corruption; so, why would the visa programs be any different? I strongly suspect companies who have employed the H1/L1 training program to later offshore their staff will see an enormous legal and otherwise backlash because I know of several stellar engineers with 16 to 25 years of experience who have gotten the axe in the last two months. An incredible misuse of ability. A waste for the whole world. IME, companies who think they will succeed by laying off their brightest and most experience employees are really already in a death spiral. Get out while you still can! Most everyone I know in tech has taken a pay cut or job cut in the last few months. For most people, it is just higher insurance premiums, no more bonuses, etc. Continued pay declines will be the norm. In a severe recession it is not about getting rich but staying afloat. As Linux and Open Source gurus, we offer to save our clients' precious capital in this time of recession. My $.02, TimJowers P.S> How do you like Norway? On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 7:15 AM, Andy Nichols wrote: > Hi, > > This should not be taken as a call to arms, but rather a wake up call to > those failing to adapt to our new situation. We live in a world without > borders now thanks to our use technology. Those who still live with those > artificial boundaries in mind are the ones who will fall behind. You are no > longer a citizen of America, but a citizen of the world. These companies > have the right idea, these H1-B visa workers have the right idea, but those > of you who are rejecting this surely must know that this battle is futile. > > I have since moved from Charlotte to Oslo, Norway for this very reason. You > go where the work is and you can't afford not to adapt in a world of change. > > > On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 2:28 AM, Jason Edgecombe > wrote: >> >> Peter Senft wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I really thought about this mail. And I am still not sure if it is good >>> to answer because I am still too emotionally affected by it. >>> >>> I feel *again* reminded of a time when an Austrian guy ruled Germany and >>> some dark mindset was planted in the brains of people. Everybody wanted >>> "Deutschland den Deutschen!" (translates: Germany for the Germans!). We >>> all know what happened then... What I hear from that senator sounds very >>> pretty much the same. And *nobody* in politics criticizes him! THIS IS >>> SCARY! >>> >>> In addition this senator should think about his request first and do his >>> homework. Visa holders by law shall be treated equally to a US citizen. >>> So there is no visa holders first possible until somebody changes the >>> laws! But hey, every politician lies more or less all the time and it >>> seems that it is so common for them to break laws that they suggest it >>> for everybody else. >>> >>> People get real. You try to work on some symptoms and not on the cause. >>> You live in a capitalistic country where greed is considered good. These >>> companies are greedy and they give a shit about people. All they care >>> about is money. But hey, let them lay off all the foreign workers. I >>> want to see the US workers that is willing to do these job for the >>> salary that the H-1B's got! These people are needed to hold the economy >>> up and running! But with all this pressure these companies think now >>> more about outsourcing. *That* will help laying off all the visa holders >>> *and* the US citizens and still the company wins. >> >> There is another downside to sending the H1-B's home. We're sending >> well-trained professionals out of the US and they will be competing against >> instead of helping us. >> >> I think the whole H1-B program is unfair to the visa holders. I say scrap >> the program and roll all of the visas into a permanent visa and raise the >> cap of permanent visas to accomodate the H1-B's. If companies want to >> recruit people from abroad, let them stay permanently and switch companies >> if desired. Let the immigrants bring over their families so that they will >> stay and increase the brain pool and work pool. >> >> Jason >> _______________________________________________ >> CharLUG mailing list >> CharLUG@charlug.org >> http://charlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/charlug > > > _______________________________________________ > CharLUG mailing list > CharLUG@charlug.org > http://charlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/charlug > > From nezticle at gmail.com Mon Feb 9 09:58:30 2009 From: nezticle at gmail.com (Andy Nichols) Date: Sun Feb 8 19:25:38 2009 Subject: [Charlug] WTF?? In-Reply-To: References: <7c5cd1190902080331ua2a7a61g8896066559c6b3f0@mail.gmail.com> <498F678C.4060103@hpss.de> <498F86A5.5050602@rampaginggeek.com> <17a9cfb50902090415r68d91745ue7994ff995d85704@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <17a9cfb50902090658p62bfc769ycac2089e68a7cb3e@mail.gmail.com> Hi Jim, et alia My move to Norway has been wonderful, I enjoy it quite a bit here. It is especially beautiful this time of year with all the snow. I was hired by Trolltech, now Nokia: Qt Software( the makers of Qt) at the end of last year and despite the economic down-turn we are still hiring: http://www.qtsoftware.com/about/careers/job-openings I do suspect that Open Source software industry will see quite a bit of growth in this economic down turn because of the savings as well as quality it can provide companies who so desperately need to cut their costs. Regards, Andy Nichols On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Tim Jowers wrote: > I think the drawdown in American pay and pricing is a positive force > for Linux. How can a company justify spending $800K for Oracle BEA > WebLogic, $70K for an AIX or SunOS server, or even $10K-$50K for a > Microsoft suite of proprietary lock-in ware? It sickened me when I > worked with the 12th largest company in the USA to see them laying off > staff in America only to blow money on stuff like this. I emailed the > VP and she had a study done. I talked to the Oracle guru about his > study: he referenced a 4 year old study comparing MySQL and Oracle and > never even installed MySQL! I talked to the engineer who did the > WebLogic versus JBoss study and he was the sysadm and basically just > wanted to keep the status quo regardless of the net mal-investment of > millions across the corporation. Saved him a week or two of learning! > In the case of WebLogic it was especially sickening since we already > were using JBoss in tandem in the network at numerous sites and we > were not using any of the proprietary WebLogic lock-in technologies so > could have migrated to JBoss in a week. Heck, RHAT even has a > migration kit which we could have used! (Another group wrote their own > migration guide.) > > As a professional programmer, I'm constantly frustrated with > Winblows. I do all of my development on Linux (Fedora or Ubuntu, don't > care which) unless I am forced to slow down and use the jalopy. As the > economy continues to tighten, this waste of $300 for 'blows and > orifice or whatever and the bigger waste of time will start to stand > out I think. > > Andy, > > You are correct. Doctors and Lawyers have used licensing and laws to > prevent competition on the world scene. As professionals with > comparable training and workload, we are frustrated with YoY industry > average pay declines. Without protectionist measures such as those > employed by doctors, lawyers, and other engineers, we will continue > the asymptotic landing of the Iron Law of Wages. > > Of course we can specialize in certain technologies and certain > company needs. Longer term, however, for our children, we have to > realize the Aluminum Law of Pricing is a direct offspring of the Iron > Law of Wages. My guess is the USA is at the precipice of pricing. No > matter how hard Congress tries to increase credit, pay is falling and > this is a natural outcome of globalization like you said. Most people > think Congress will start printing physical currency but the in real > value terms pay will continue to obey the Iron Law of Wages (that's > why it's a Law). Pricing will adjust accordingly (The Aluminum Law of > Pricing). This is what GM fails to accept. They are competing with Kia > and Hyundai -- well, should be but instead choose to not sell cars and > to let their business collapse while Hyundai's sales are actually > increasing. People who are making less money have to buy lower priced > autos. > > As to the H1B and L1 visas, I worked at one place where a person had > been on an L1 visa for 7 years. He was afraid to even ask HCL for an > H1 as he thought they'd make him leave the USA! I tried to get him to > switch to another bodyshop but HCL had him on a tight leash. The H1B > and L1 visa programs have zero enforcement on the federal > requirements. We know in everything the government does there is > corruption; so, why would the visa programs be any different? I > strongly suspect companies who have employed the H1/L1 training > program to later offshore their staff will see an enormous legal and > otherwise backlash because I know of several stellar engineers with 16 > to 25 years of experience who have gotten the axe in the last two > months. An incredible misuse of ability. A waste for the whole world. > IME, companies who think they will succeed by laying off their > brightest and most experience employees are really already in a death > spiral. Get out while you still can! > > Most everyone I know in tech has taken a pay cut or job cut in the > last few months. For most people, it is just higher insurance > premiums, no more bonuses, etc. Continued pay declines will be the > norm. In a severe recession it is not about getting rich but staying > afloat. As Linux and Open Source gurus, we offer to save our clients' > precious capital in this time of recession. > > My $.02, > TimJowers > P.S> How do you like Norway? > > > On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 7:15 AM, Andy Nichols wrote: > > Hi, > > > > This should not be taken as a call to arms, but rather a wake up call to > > those failing to adapt to our new situation. We live in a world without > > borders now thanks to our use technology. Those who still live with > those > > artificial boundaries in mind are the ones who will fall behind. You are > no > > longer a citizen of America, but a citizen of the world. These compani= es > > have the right idea, these H1-B visa workers have the right idea, but > those > > of you who are rejecting this surely must know that this battle is > futile. > > > > I have since moved from Charlotte to Oslo, Norway for this very reason. > You > > go where the work is and you can't afford not to adapt in a world of > change. > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 2:28 AM, Jason Edgecombe > > > wrote: > >> > >> Peter Senft wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> I really thought about this mail. And I am still not sure if it is go= od > >>> to answer because I am still too emotionally affected by it. > >>> > >>> I feel *again* reminded of a time when an Austrian guy ruled Germany > and > >>> some dark mindset was planted in the brains of people. Everybody want= ed > >>> "Deutschland den Deutschen!" (translates: Germany for the Germans!). = We > >>> all know what happened then... What I hear from that senator sounds > very > >>> pretty much the same. And *nobody* in politics criticizes him! THIS IS > >>> SCARY! > >>> > >>> In addition this senator should think about his request first and do > his > >>> homework. Visa holders by law shall be treated equally to a US citize= n. > >>> So there is no visa holders first possible until somebody changes the > >>> laws! But hey, every politician lies more or less all the time and it > >>> seems that it is so common for them to break laws that they suggest it > >>> for everybody else. > >>> > >>> People get real. You try to work on some symptoms and not on the caus= e. > >>> You live in a capitalistic country where greed is considered good. > These > >>> companies are greedy and they give a shit about people. All they care > >>> about is money. But hey, let them lay off all the foreign workers. I > >>> want to see the US workers that is willing to do these job for the > >>> salary that the H-1B's got! These people are needed to hold the econo= my > >>> up and running! But with all this pressure these companies think now > >>> more about outsourcing. *That* will help laying off all the visa > holders > >>> *and* the US citizens and still the company wins. > >> > >> There is another downside to sending the H1-B's home. We're sending > >> well-trained professionals out of the US and they will be competing > against > >> instead of helping us. > >> > >> I think the whole H1-B program is unfair to the visa holders. I say > scrap > >> the program and roll all of the visas into a permanent visa and raise > the > >> cap of permanent visas to accomodate the H1-B's. If companies want to > >> recruit people from abroad, let them stay permanently and switch > companies > >> if desired. Let the immigrants bring over their families so that they > will > >> stay and increase the brain pool and work pool. > >> > >> Jason > >> _______________________________________________ > >> CharLUG mailing list > >> CharLUG@charlug.org > >> http://charlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/charlug > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > CharLUG mailing list > > CharLUG@charlug.org > > http://charlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/charlug > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://charlug.org/pipermail/charlug/attachments/20090209/3a1c5989/att= achment-0001.htm From dave at dgnal.net Mon Feb 9 12:06:12 2009 From: dave at dgnal.net (David Simmons) Date: Sun Feb 8 21:34:49 2009 Subject: [Charlug] 7 Cool Things to do with Linux Message-ID: <5e1cbafe4a0ad0c53174d8f71cf4ea29.squirrel@mail.dgnal.net> a fun read.... http://www.davehayes.org/2009/01/16/7-cool-things-to-do-with-linux From peter.senft at hpss.de Mon Feb 9 16:38:51 2009 From: peter.senft at hpss.de (Peter Senft) Date: Mon Feb 9 02:05:52 2009 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Charlug] Upgrading old Ubuntu] In-Reply-To: <200901302334.29693.phma@phma.optus.nu> References: <49837837.5000906@hpss.de> <200901301820.01370.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4983C476.6090000@hpss.de> <200901302334.29693.phma@phma.optus.nu> Message-ID: <4990A26B.9050109@hpss.de> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Friday 30 January 2009 22:24:38 you wrote: >> Hmm... was that for me or Dennis? And... that's more for the list admin. >> Why is he not getting the mails, when we cc the list? I always do a >> reply to all and it seems that some people got my mails. > > Hmm. That was sent to the list, cc: me, and I still got only the copy directly > to me. That messes up my mail filtering. I filter on the List-ID header, > which is added to the copy that goes through the list. okay... same behavior here :/. I know that there is no "list admin". But is there a reason why the server is not setting the reply to to the CharLUG address? That would make life a little bit easier :). Just an idea ;). cu hps - -- | Peter Senft /"\ | E-Mail : peter.senft@hpss.de \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | FIDO : 2:2476/847.34 X against HTML mail | ICQ : 62090394 / \ | Powered by Debian Linux | #185651 http://counter.li.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFJkKJr8C47DFW4ANMRAij8AJ49zcBkYNoLmuIa306WHBFaFEe5qwCgsb89 qHGOvRxnnE7OiFCeYvTVa7U= =yq70 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rick at niof.net Mon Feb 9 16:49:51 2009 From: rick at niof.net (Rick Pasotto) Date: Mon Feb 9 02:16:54 2009 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Charlug] Upgrading old Ubuntu] In-Reply-To: <4990A26B.9050109@hpss.de> References: <49837837.5000906@hpss.de> <200901301820.01370.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4983C476.6090000@hpss.de> <200901302334.29693.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4990A26B.9050109@hpss.de> Message-ID: <20090209214951.GP22176@niof.net> On Mon, Feb 09, 2009 at 04:38:51PM -0500, Peter Senft wrote: > > okay... same behavior here :/. I know that there is no "list admin". > But is there a reason why the server is not setting the reply to to > the CharLUG address? Of course there is. > That would make life a little bit easier :). No it wouldn't. > Just an idea ;). An idea that unfortunately can't be killed. It keeps resurecting itself like some ugly vampire. http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html -- "You cannot tailor make the situations in life, but you can tailor make the attitudes to fit those situations before they arise." -- Zig Zigler Rick Pasotto rick@niof.net http://www.niof.net From cmpilato at red-bean.com Mon Feb 9 16:56:27 2009 From: cmpilato at red-bean.com (C. Michael Pilato) Date: Mon Feb 9 02:23:35 2009 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Charlug] Upgrading old Ubuntu] In-Reply-To: <20090209214951.GP22176@niof.net> References: <49837837.5000906@hpss.de> <200901301820.01370.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4983C476.6090000@hpss.de> <200901302334.29693.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4990A26B.9050109@hpss.de> <20090209214951.GP22176@niof.net> Message-ID: <4990A68B.7090805@red-bean.com> Rick Pasotto wrote: >> Just an idea ;). > > An idea that unfortunately can't be killed. It keeps resurecting itself > like some ugly vampire. > > http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html Gah. You beat me to it. :-) -- C. Michael Pilato | http://cmpilato.blogspot.com/ From peter.senft at hpss.de Mon Feb 9 17:27:29 2009 From: peter.senft at hpss.de (Peter Senft) Date: Mon Feb 9 02:54:31 2009 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Charlug] Upgrading old Ubuntu] In-Reply-To: <20090209214951.GP22176@niof.net> References: <49837837.5000906@hpss.de> <200901301820.01370.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4983C476.6090000@hpss.de> <200901302334.29693.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4990A26B.9050109@hpss.de> <20090209214951.GP22176@niof.net> Message-ID: <4990ADD1.4090004@hpss.de> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Rick Pasotto wrote: > On Mon, Feb 09, 2009 at 04:38:51PM -0500, Peter Senft wrote: >> okay... same behavior here :/. I know that there is no "list admin". >> But is there a reason why the server is not setting the reply to to >> the CharLUG address? > Of course there is. That's what I thought :). >> That would make life a little bit easier :). > No it wouldn't. Well, yes it would for me in daily life. But I totally understand that you guys want to do minimal munging. So never mind. >> Just an idea ;). > An idea that unfortunately can't be killed. It keeps resurecting itself > like some ugly vampire. Nice comparison... ;) cu hps - -- | Peter Senft /"\ | E-Mail : peter.senft@hpss.de \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | FIDO : 2:2476/847.34 X against HTML mail | ICQ : 62090394 / \ | Powered by Debian Linux | #185651 http://counter.li.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFJkK3R8C47DFW4ANMRAsKbAJ9W5QlAY5p+do46P2WpNdKenoNadQCdGQKw do6I5XeoZ8Kqs+MyXgjbKoI= =kg5Z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From peter.senft at hpss.de Mon Feb 9 17:28:16 2009 From: peter.senft at hpss.de (Peter Senft) Date: Mon Feb 9 02:55:14 2009 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Charlug] Upgrading old Ubuntu] In-Reply-To: <4990A68B.7090805@red-bean.com> References: <49837837.5000906@hpss.de> <200901301820.01370.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4983C476.6090000@hpss.de> <200901302334.29693.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4990A26B.9050109@hpss.de> <20090209214951.GP22176@niof.net> <4990A68B.7090805@red-bean.com> Message-ID: <4990AE00.2060805@hpss.de> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 C. Michael Pilato wrote: > Rick Pasotto wrote: >>> Just an idea ;). >> An idea that unfortunately can't be killed. It keeps resurecting itself >> like some ugly vampire. >> >> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html > > Gah. You beat me to it. :-) Let me guess... you had that discussion here before? :D cu hps - -- | Peter Senft /"\ | E-Mail : peter.senft@hpss.de \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | FIDO : 2:2476/847.34 X against HTML mail | ICQ : 62090394 / \ | Powered by Debian Linux | #185651 http://counter.li.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFJkK4A8C47DFW4ANMRAisyAJ4s8xzQkv4YHfbN7pmfP5i1T39o6ACfZfTM vlPFaqik8z1P3kJsis7UA4s= =Q/go -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cmpilato at red-bean.com Mon Feb 9 17:36:17 2009 From: cmpilato at red-bean.com (C. Michael Pilato) Date: Mon Feb 9 03:03:26 2009 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Charlug] Upgrading old Ubuntu] In-Reply-To: <4990AE00.2060805@hpss.de> References: <49837837.5000906@hpss.de> <200901301820.01370.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4983C476.6090000@hpss.de> <200901302334.29693.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4990A26B.9050109@hpss.de> <20090209214951.GP22176@niof.net> <4990A68B.7090805@red-bean.com> <4990AE00.2060805@hpss.de> Message-ID: <4990AFE1.4040103@red-bean.com> Peter Senft wrote: > C. Michael Pilato wrote: >> Rick Pasotto wrote: >>>> Just an idea ;). >>> An idea that unfortunately can't be killed. It keeps resurecting itself >>> like some ugly vampire. >>> >>> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html >> Gah. You beat me to it. :-) > > Let me guess... you had that discussion here before? :D I dunno about here, but I feel like I've had this conversation everywhere else, at least. -- C. Michael Pilato | http://cmpilato.blogspot.com/ From peter.senft at hpss.de Mon Feb 9 18:35:03 2009 From: peter.senft at hpss.de (Peter Senft) Date: Mon Feb 9 04:02:03 2009 Subject: [Charlug] WTF?? In-Reply-To: <4990703B.6070209@reuel.net> References: <7c5cd1190902080331ua2a7a61g8896066559c6b3f0@mail.gmail.com> <498F678C.4060103@hpss.de> <4990703B.6070209@reuel.net> Message-ID: <4990BDA7.40309@hpss.de> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Leam, Leam Hall wrote: > Peter, there's a mild difference between giving money to companies who > are firing Americans to hire cheaper labor, and an Austrian who used > Germany's historic wounds against the people. Maybe it's a little bit far fetched but I see it that way. At the moment the future is not written and therefor we don't know how this will evolve. I hope it will not come to the worst... > The issue is, who supports the bailout money? Certainly not foriegn > countries that benefit from having workers here. if an American loses a > job and pays taxes on unemployment and those taxes go to a person who > replaced the worker, can you see how frustrating that would be? Hmm... okay .... The bailout money is supported by the people that pay taxes. So it is more or less everybody and every company and/or institution here in the US. Foreign countries of course don't pay for the US bailout. Why should they? But please explain the benefit for the countries having the workers here. Or let me write down some thoughts... First of all the countries don't delegate the workers to be here on an H-1B. I am just writing this because your statement reads to me like the other countries are sending the people here. Second, the home countries don't benefit from the stay at all. - - They don't pay taxes to their country - - They don't pay into their social system and might not be able to use these systems afterwards. - - A skilled professional leaves the country so the brain pool shrinks Sorry, but I don't see a benefit for that country. On the other hand I see a benefit for the US: - - They pay taxes here -> bailout! - - They pay into a rotten social security and medicare system that they can never use - - They bring their skills to the US I don't want to sum up the downsides of being an H-1B. Third, these workers don't replace US workers. At least not at the moment. The currently working H-1B's made their application a long time before the economic crisis. They are here to do exactly the job that the company defined them to do. If that replaced a US worker then that did happen *before* the crisis. And it is interesting that the companies don't lay off these people first. According to the laws (that are most likely bend by the companies) these people need to earn at least the same than a comparable US worker. Why do you think these companies keep more expensive workers... And just to make my point clear. I sympathize with the people who are losing their jobs. And I understand the frustration and fear of these people. But is it correct to abuse foreign workers as scapegoats? The issue is more the companies that made big profit now use the current economy situation to lay off people. Who they lay off does not matter. But a clamor like the one of the senator is dangerous! It creates fear and hate against people that are not the cause of the issue. It is distracting from the real issues like health care, social security and at the moment the most important thing: creating jobs! cu hps - -- | Peter Senft /"\ | E-Mail : peter.senft@hpss.de \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | FIDO : 2:2476/847.34 X against HTML mail | ICQ : 62090394 / \ | Powered by Debian Linux | #185651 http://counter.li.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFJkL2n8C47DFW4ANMRAnpiAKDPYZMi17Hp+bqF7dkZy2EEZAAiJwCgyvHT s556tQ9sPSdsIoY8Ca10lbc= =v4Sq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bobevans19 at gmail.com Tue Feb 10 07:36:40 2009 From: bobevans19 at gmail.com (Bob Evans) Date: Mon Feb 9 17:03:39 2009 Subject: [Charlug] WTF?? In-Reply-To: <17a9cfb50902090658p62bfc769ycac2089e68a7cb3e@mail.gmail.com> References: <7c5cd1190902080331ua2a7a61g8896066559c6b3f0@mail.gmail.com> <498F678C.4060103@hpss.de> <498F86A5.5050602@rampaginggeek.com> <17a9cfb50902090415r68d91745ue7994ff995d85704@mail.gmail.com> <17a9cfb50902090658p62bfc769ycac2089e68a7cb3e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7c5cd1190902100436x2f0f624dm5e82939a92cedd7b@mail.gmail.com> *Here is my response.* *Indian programmers: stay in India unless you want to become an American and contribute to this economy.* For those who haven't bothered to educate themselves, the H-1B visa is a non-immigrant work visa. Employers are legally allowed to pay H-1B's less than they pay Americans and to work them longer hours and not pay them benefits. Guess when those employers can replace Americans with slaves they will. Hey, isn't it a great deal? Americans get to fight and die in the U.S. military to protect corporate interests, but the corporations don't want to hire Americans and pay an American wage. And by the way, I have it in writing from the U.S. Dept. of Labor that due to loopholes in the law, the employer is legally allowed to hire H-1B's to replace Americans and then pay the H-1B's less. In fact, this happened to me in 2002 when I had to train my Indian replacement in order to receive severance. He was then paid about half what I had been earning. I have been told by Indian programmers that they come here, share apartments, live as frugally as possible, and save their money rather than spend it here. Then they return to India and live like kings. check out this site for the real facts: http://www.zazona.com/ShameH1B/ Keep mind open; keep mouth shut...until you know what is true.. RTFM *I will stay here. *I will work toward finding a way to end the American worker replacement scheme, rather than becoming a sheeple who accepts the corporate line about how it's called globalization and it's good for you. It can't be globalization unless it works both ways. And last time I checked, Americans aren't allowed to go to India and take jobs from Indians. *Want a programmers' equivalent to the BAR or the AMA?* *Do what I did: join the Programmers' Guild...* *Join FSF...* *Join EFF...* On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 9:58 AM, Andy Nichols wrote: > Hi Jim, et alia > > My move to Norway has been wonderful, I enjoy it quite a bit here. It is > especially beautiful this time of year with all the snow. > > I was hired by Trolltech, now Nokia: Qt Software( the makers of Qt) at the > end of last year and despite the economic down-turn we are still hiring: > > http://www.qtsoftware.com/about/careers/job-openings > > I do suspect that Open Source software industry will see quite a bit of > growth in this economic down turn because of the savings as well as quali= ty > it can provide companies who so desperately need to cut their costs. > > Regards, > Andy Nichols > > > On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Tim Jowers wrote: > >> I think the drawdown in American pay and pricing is a positive force >> for Linux. How can a company justify spending $800K for Oracle BEA >> WebLogic, $70K for an AIX or SunOS server, or even $10K-$50K for a >> Microsoft suite of proprietary lock-in ware? It sickened me when I >> worked with the 12th largest company in the USA to see them laying off >> staff in America only to blow money on stuff like this. I emailed the >> VP and she had a study done. I talked to the Oracle guru about his >> study: he referenced a 4 year old study comparing MySQL and Oracle and >> never even installed MySQL! I talked to the engineer who did the >> WebLogic versus JBoss study and he was the sysadm and basically just >> wanted to keep the status quo regardless of the net mal-investment of >> millions across the corporation. Saved him a week or two of learning! >> In the case of WebLogic it was especially sickening since we already >> were using JBoss in tandem in the network at numerous sites and we >> were not using any of the proprietary WebLogic lock-in technologies so >> could have migrated to JBoss in a week. Heck, RHAT even has a >> migration kit which we could have used! (Another group wrote their own >> migration guide.) >> >> As a professional programmer, I'm constantly frustrated with >> Winblows. I do all of my development on Linux (Fedora or Ubuntu, don't >> care which) unless I am forced to slow down and use the jalopy. As the >> economy continues to tighten, this waste of $300 for 'blows and >> orifice or whatever and the bigger waste of time will start to stand >> out I think. >> >> Andy, >> >> You are correct. Doctors and Lawyers have used licensing and laws to >> prevent competition on the world scene. As professionals with >> comparable training and workload, we are frustrated with YoY industry >> average pay declines. Without protectionist measures such as those >> employed by doctors, lawyers, and other engineers, we will continue >> the asymptotic landing of the Iron Law of Wages. >> >> Of course we can specialize in certain technologies and certain >> company needs. Longer term, however, for our children, we have to >> realize the Aluminum Law of Pricing is a direct offspring of the Iron >> Law of Wages. My guess is the USA is at the precipice of pricing. No >> matter how hard Congress tries to increase credit, pay is falling and >> this is a natural outcome of globalization like you said. Most people >> think Congress will start printing physical currency but the in real >> value terms pay will continue to obey the Iron Law of Wages (that's >> why it's a Law). Pricing will adjust accordingly (The Aluminum Law of >> Pricing). This is what GM fails to accept. They are competing with Kia >> and Hyundai -- well, should be but instead choose to not sell cars and >> to let their business collapse while Hyundai's sales are actually >> increasing. People who are making less money have to buy lower priced >> autos. >> >> As to the H1B and L1 visas, I worked at one place where a person had >> been on an L1 visa for 7 years. He was afraid to even ask HCL for an >> H1 as he thought they'd make him leave the USA! I tried to get him to >> switch to another bodyshop but HCL had him on a tight leash. The H1B >> and L1 visa programs have zero enforcement on the federal >> requirements. We know in everything the government does there is >> corruption; so, why would the visa programs be any different? I >> strongly suspect companies who have employed the H1/L1 training >> program to later offshore their staff will see an enormous legal and >> otherwise backlash because I know of several stellar engineers with 16 >> to 25 years of experience who have gotten the axe in the last two >> months. An incredible misuse of ability. A waste for the whole world. >> IME, companies who think they will succeed by laying off their >> brightest and most experience employees are really already in a death >> spiral. Get out while you still can! >> >> Most everyone I know in tech has taken a pay cut or job cut in the >> last few months. For most people, it is just higher insurance >> premiums, no more bonuses, etc. Continued pay declines will be the >> norm. In a severe recession it is not about getting rich but staying >> afloat. As Linux and Open Source gurus, we offer to save our clients' >> precious capital in this time of recession. >> >> My $.02, >> TimJowers >> P.S> How do you like Norway? >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 7:15 AM, Andy Nichols wrote: >> > Hi, >> > >> > This should not be taken as a call to arms, but rather a wake up call = to >> > those failing to adapt to our new situation. We live in a world witho= ut >> > borders now thanks to our use technology. Those who still live with >> those >> > artificial boundaries in mind are the ones who will fall behind. You a= re >> no >> > longer a citizen of America, but a citizen of the world. These >> companies >> > have the right idea, these H1-B visa workers have the right idea, but >> those >> > of you who are rejecting this surely must know that this battle is >> futile. >> > >> > I have since moved from Charlotte to Oslo, Norway for this very reason. >> You >> > go where the work is and you can't afford not to adapt in a world of >> change. >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 2:28 AM, Jason Edgecombe < >> jason@rampaginggeek.com> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> Peter Senft wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Hi, >> >>> >> >>> I really thought about this mail. And I am still not sure if it is >> good >> >>> to answer because I am still too emotionally affected by it. >> >>> >> >>> I feel *again* reminded of a time when an Austrian guy ruled Germany >> and >> >>> some dark mindset was planted in the brains of people. Everybody >> wanted >> >>> "Deutschland den Deutschen!" (translates: Germany for the Germans!). >> We >> >>> all know what happened then... What I hear from that senator sounds >> very >> >>> pretty much the same. And *nobody* in politics criticizes him! THIS = IS >> >>> SCARY! >> >>> >> >>> In addition this senator should think about his request first and do >> his >> >>> homework. Visa holders by law shall be treated equally to a US >> citizen. >> >>> So there is no visa holders first possible until somebody changes the >> >>> laws! But hey, every politician lies more or less all the time and it >> >>> seems that it is so common for them to break laws that they suggest = it >> >>> for everybody else. >> >>> >> >>> People get real. You try to work on some symptoms and not on the >> cause. >> >>> You live in a capitalistic country where greed is considered good. >> These >> >>> companies are greedy and they give a shit about people. All they care >> >>> about is money. But hey, let them lay off all the foreign workers. I >> >>> want to see the US workers that is willing to do these job for the >> >>> salary that the H-1B's got! These people are needed to hold the >> economy >> >>> up and running! But with all this pressure these companies think now >> >>> more about outsourcing. *That* will help laying off all the visa >> holders >> >>> *and* the US citizens and still the company wins. >> >> >> >> There is another downside to sending the H1-B's home. We're sending >> >> well-trained professionals out of the US and they will be competing >> against >> >> instead of helping us. >> >> >> >> I think the whole H1-B program is unfair to the visa holders. I say >> scrap >> >> the program and roll all of the visas into a permanent visa and raise >> the >> >> cap of permanent visas to accomodate the H1-B's. If companies want to >> >> recruit people from abroad, let them stay permanently and switch >> companies >> >> if desired. Let the immigrants bring over their families so that they >> will >> >> stay and increase the brain pool and work pool. >> >> >> >> Jason >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> CharLUG mailing list >> >> CharLUG@charlug.org >> >> http://charlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/charlug >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > CharLUG mailing list >> > CharLUG@charlug.org >> > http://charlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/charlug >> > >> > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > CharLUG mailing list > CharLUG@charlug.org > http://charlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/charlug > > -- = The great thing about democracy is that it gives every voter a chance to do something stupid. - Art Spander -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://charlug.org/pipermail/charlug/attachments/20090210/6a0dcc02/att= achment.htm From phma at phma.optus.nu Thu Feb 12 00:17:34 2009 From: phma at phma.optus.nu (Pierre Abbat) Date: Wed Feb 11 09:44:25 2009 Subject: [Charlug] IPv6 at Road Runner? Message-ID: <200902120017.35386.phma@phma.optus.nu> Who's the guy to talk to about asking RR to install IPv6? I found, after the upgrade, that Miredo is working, but the other end of the tunnel is in Europe. My router doesn't support protocol 41, let alone native IPv6, but if RR had a Miredo PoP then I could get on IPv6 without having to cross the pond. Pierre From boomfish at gmail.com Thu Feb 12 11:50:26 2009 From: boomfish at gmail.com (Dennis Clark) Date: Wed Feb 11 21:17:12 2009 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Charlug] Upgrading old Ubuntu] In-Reply-To: <4990A26B.9050109@hpss.de> References: <49837837.5000906@hpss.de> <200901301820.01370.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4983C476.6090000@hpss.de> <200901302334.29693.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4990A26B.9050109@hpss.de> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Peter Senft wrote: > > Pierre Abbat wrote: > > On Friday 30 January 2009 22:24:38 you wrote: > >> Hmm... was that for me or Dennis? And... that's more for the list admi= n. > >> Why is he not getting the mails, when we cc the list? I always do a > >> reply to all and it seems that some people got my mails. > > > > Hmm. That was sent to the list, cc: me, and I still got only the copy > directly > > to me. That messes up my mail filtering. I filter on the List-ID header, > > which is added to the copy that goes through the list. I'm no mailman expert, but I noticed the charlug list membership configuration page contains an "Avoid duplicate copies of message" option, which is on by default. Turning that option off may get you the behavior you need from the list so that your mail filtering works the way you intended. Finding the link to the charlug list membership configuration page is left as an exercise for the reader :-) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://charlug.org/pipermail/charlug/attachments/20090212/8a22f2be/att= achment.htm From peter.senft at hpss.de Thu Feb 12 14:18:20 2009 From: peter.senft at hpss.de (Peter Senft) Date: Wed Feb 11 23:45:09 2009 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Charlug] Upgrading old Ubuntu] In-Reply-To: References: <49837837.5000906@hpss.de> <200901301820.01370.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4983C476.6090000@hpss.de> <200901302334.29693.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4990A26B.9050109@hpss.de> Message-ID: <499475FC.6090305@hpss.de> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Dennis, Dennis Clark wrote: > I'm no mailman expert, but I noticed the charlug list membership > configuration page contains an "Avoid duplicate copies of message" option, > which is on by default. Turning that option off may get you the behavior you > need from the list so that your mail filtering works the way you intended. thanks for the hint. That is exactly what I needed :)... why didn't I think of it.... > Finding the link to the charlug list membership configuration page is left > as an exercise for the reader :-) ... it's like a text adventure ;) cu hps - -- | Peter Senft /"\ | E-Mail : peter.senft@hpss.de \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | FIDO : 2:2476/847.34 X against HTML mail | ICQ : 62090394 / \ | Powered by Debian Linux | #185651 http://counter.li.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFJlHX88C47DFW4ANMRAsS5AKCEoPPWBWJxhmXIA7cNEP/JuluyswCgmYv0 rVG+ERT+AOROWnhLZ9MVD+w= =Q71w -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From leam at reuel.net Mon Feb 16 09:59:22 2009 From: leam at reuel.net (Leam Hall) Date: Sun Feb 15 19:25:52 2009 Subject: [Charlug] Ham Radio Message-ID: <49997F4A.3020805@reuel.net> Any Linux Hams out there? Any pointers to info for th enewbie? Leam From bobevans19 at gmail.com Mon Feb 16 10:41:24 2009 From: bobevans19 at gmail.com (Bob Evans) Date: Sun Feb 15 20:07:48 2009 Subject: [Charlug] Ham Radio In-Reply-To: <49997F4A.3020805@reuel.net> References: <49997F4A.3020805@reuel.net> Message-ID: <7c5cd1190902160741nbf52c73n163184b6d96d7d84@mail.gmail.com> I'm not one yet, but my dad was from 1935 until 2008. My brother is, too... Go to http://www.qsl.net/w1jc for starters...... I know there are a bunch of hams at the NT User Group. Or whatever it is called now........ -be On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Leam Hall wrote: > Any Linux Hams out there? Any pointers to info for th enewbie? > > Leam > _______________________________________________ > CharLUG mailing list > CharLUG@charlug.org > http://charlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/charlug > -- Almost all absurdity of conduct arises from the imitation of those whom we cannot resemble. - Samuel Johnson From leam at reuel.net Mon Feb 16 12:16:31 2009 From: leam at reuel.net (Leam Hall) Date: Sun Feb 15 21:43:00 2009 Subject: [Charlug] Ham Radio In-Reply-To: <7c5cd1190902160741nbf52c73n163184b6d96d7d84@mail.gmail.com> References: <49997F4A.3020805@reuel.net> <7c5cd1190902160741nbf52c73n163184b6d96d7d84@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49999F6F.5010000@reuel.net> http://www.w4bfb.org/hamfest2009/hamfest.html Local Ham group is having a test Saturday. Hamfest middle of next month, and they'll have a test there as well. hmm... Leam Bob Evans wrote: > I'm not one yet, but my dad was from 1935 until 2008. My brother is, too... > > Go to http://www.qsl.net/w1jc for starters...... > > I know there are a bunch of hams at the NT User Group. Or whatever it > is called now........ > > -be > > > > > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Leam Hall wrote: >> Any Linux Hams out there? Any pointers to info for th enewbie? >> >> Leam >> _______________________________________________ >> CharLUG mailing list >> CharLUG@charlug.org >> http://charlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/charlug >> > > > From bobevans19 at gmail.com Wed Feb 18 04:59:32 2009 From: bobevans19 at gmail.com (bobevans19@gmail.com) Date: Tue Feb 17 14:25:47 2009 Subject: [Charlug] Metered usage/software as a service... Message-ID: <0016363b82def33bc804632e79de@google.com> There is a lot of talk about "the next big thing" being software as a = service... In keeping with this direction, I am announcing the following service as of= = March 1. You get (per concurrent user): ** Personal copy of any Linux. ** Personal copy of any Windows. ** Current copy of OS/X. All images are housed in a secure data center, with nightly backups & = disaster recovery procedures... Concurrent user pricing:: $100/1 year $250/3 years Ask about LUG discounts. Your images are accessible world wide, either on a provided thin client, or= = via a web browser. Sign up now. Beat the crowds. Ask about discounts for schools & non-profit... -be carolinux.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://charlug.org/pipermail/charlug/attachments/20090218/776a14d7/att= achment.htm From bobevans19 at gmail.com Wed Feb 18 10:02:47 2009 From: bobevans19 at gmail.com (Bob Evans) Date: Tue Feb 17 19:29:00 2009 Subject: [Charlug] February guest speaker...........Greg DeKoenigsberg Message-ID: <7c5cd1190902180702y9f7f05el99d013438cf58e4d@mail.gmail.com> Greg DeKoenigsberg, Fedora guru from RedHat, will be our guest speaker at the February meeting................ Greg is working out and checking email. 9:43am - Comment - LikeUnlike - Show Feedback (2)Hide Feedback (2) You like this. Bob Evans at 10:09am February 16 Greg... any chance you can visit the Charlotte Linux Users Group meeting on February 28th fom 10-12? No problem if you can't, I got a thin client demo on the back burner.... -be Greg DeKoenigsberg at 10:15am February 16 I'll be there. Write a comment... -- It's not a matter of whether or not someone's watching over you. It's just a question of their intentions. - Randy K. Milholland From bobevans19 at gmail.com Wed Feb 18 20:57:58 2009 From: bobevans19 at gmail.com (Bob Evans) Date: Wed Feb 18 06:24:10 2009 Subject: [Charlug] Re: Metered usage/software as a service... In-Reply-To: <0016363b82def33bc804632e79de@google.com> References: <0016363b82def33bc804632e79de@google.com> Message-ID: <7c5cd1190902181757g49a256d0i9d82872e81293ee9@mail.gmail.com> A further price breakdown was requested: 1 Month - $10 1 Year - $100 3 Years - $250 Price reduction continues at the 10 seat level, and every 10 seats thereafter... More to come as we approach the March 1 rollout. -be carolinux.com On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 4:59 AM, wrote: > There is a lot of talk about "the next big thing" being software as a > service... > > In keeping with this direction, I am announcing the following service as = of > March 1. > > You get (per concurrent user): > > ** Personal copy of any Linux. > > ** Personal copy of any Windows. > > ** Current copy of OS/X. > > All images are housed in a secure data center, with nightly backups & > disaster recovery procedures... > > > Concurrent user pricing:: > > $100/1 year > > $250/3 years > > > Ask about LUG discounts. > > Your images are accessible world wide, either on a provided thin client, = or > via a web browser. > > Sign up now. Beat the crowds. > > Ask about discounts for schools & non-profit... > > > -be > > carolinux.com -- = It's not a matter of whether or not someone's watching over you. It's just a question of their intentions. - Randy K. Milholland -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://charlug.org/pipermail/charlug/attachments/20090218/11cb8759/att= achment.htm From bobevans19 at gmail.com Thu Feb 19 06:10:39 2009 From: bobevans19 at gmail.com (Bob Evans) Date: Wed Feb 18 15:36:49 2009 Subject: [Charlug] REAL stuff Message-ID: <7c5cd1190902190310r7c2e348aqe53a1190b6f3c1d8@mail.gmail.com> I just wanted to share with any developers on list: I've had good success using REAL Basic and REAL SQL. I can write it once, and run on either OS/X, Windows, or Linux. I am, as you know,quite lazy... -be -- = It's not a matter of whether or not someone's watching over you. It's just a question of their intentions. - Randy K. Milholland -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://charlug.org/pipermail/charlug/attachments/20090219/b07c28d8/att= achment.htm From bobevans19 at gmail.com Mon Feb 23 17:22:25 2009 From: bobevans19 at gmail.com (Bob Evans) Date: Mon Feb 23 02:48:10 2009 Subject: [Charlug] February guest speaker..Greg DeKoenigsberg Message-ID: <7c5cd1190902231422t1b00f355r92f5e39321352106@mail.gmail.com> If anyone wants to visit this Saturday, Greg DeKoenigsberg will be our guest speaker. What: Charlotte GNU/Linux User Group Monthly Meeting When: 10:00-14:00 Where: Levine Campus - Central piedmont Community College Levine I Building Subway Food Court Greg is a Fedora guru at RedHat. He might have an ample supply of hats, both red and blue... Feel free to spread the word.......... tia -be http://www.facebook.com/people/Greg-DeKoenigsberg/513678315 -- = Only the weak are cruel. Gentleness can only be expected from the strong. Leo Buscaglia Daily Universal Resource Locator: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutonium -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://charlug.org/pipermail/charlug/attachments/20090223/19097317/att= achment.htm From bobevans19 at gmail.com Wed Feb 25 07:38:02 2009 From: bobevans19 at gmail.com (Bob Evans) Date: Tue Feb 24 17:03:39 2009 Subject: [Charlug] southeast linuxfest Message-ID: <7c5cd1190902250438m74848e31p41a25f94387e9571@mail.gmail.com> We (charlug) are sponsors....... http://wiki.southeastlinuxfest.org/index.php/Main_Page -be -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://charlug.org/pipermail/charlug/attachments/20090225/65addafe/att= achment.htm From jason at rampaginggeek.com Wed Feb 25 22:12:24 2009 From: jason at rampaginggeek.com (Jason Edgecombe) Date: Wed Feb 25 07:37:57 2009 Subject: [Charlug] February guest speaker..Greg DeKoenigsberg In-Reply-To: <7c5cd1190902231422t1b00f355r92f5e39321352106@mail.gmail.com> References: <7c5cd1190902231422t1b00f355r92f5e39321352106@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49A60898.3050107@rampaginggeek.com> Bob Evans wrote: > If anyone wants to visit this Saturday, Greg DeKoenigsberg will be our guest > speaker. > > What: Charlotte GNU/Linux User Group Monthly Meeting > > When: 10:00-14:00 > > Where: Levine Campus - Central piedmont Community College > > Levine I Building > > Subway Food Court > > Greg is a Fedora guru at RedHat. He might have an ample supply of hats, both > red and blue... > > Feel free to spread the word.......... > > tia > > -be > > > > http://www.facebook.com/people/Greg-DeKoenigsberg/513678315 > > Is Greg giving a presentation, having an open discussion, or both? If he's giving a presentation, what is the topic? I'm trying to figure out if I can do part of the charlug meeting and visit with family afterwards. Thanks, Jason From bobevans19 at gmail.com Thu Feb 26 04:51:29 2009 From: bobevans19 at gmail.com (Bob Evans) Date: Wed Feb 25 14:17:01 2009 Subject: [Charlug] February guest speaker..Greg DeKoenigsberg In-Reply-To: <49A60898.3050107@rampaginggeek.com> References: <7c5cd1190902231422t1b00f355r92f5e39321352106@mail.gmail.com> <49A60898.3050107@rampaginggeek.com> Message-ID: <7c5cd1190902260151r1368bf2an2454ea274b825863@mail.gmail.com> Jason Greg's talk will be on One Laptop Per Child, education, and Open Source. Several others will chime in afterwords. A general discussion will follow. Please try to make it. -be On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 10:12 PM, Jason Edgecombe wrote: > Bob Evans wrote: > >> If anyone wants to visit this Saturday, Greg DeKoenigsberg will be our >> guest >> speaker. >> >> What: Charlotte GNU/Linux User Group Monthly Meeting >> >> When: 10:00-14:00 >> >> Where: Levine Campus - Central piedmont Community College >> >> Levine I Building >> >> Subway Food Court >> >> Greg is a Fedora guru at RedHat. He might have an ample supply of hats, >> both >> red and blue... >> >> Feel free to spread the word.......... >> >> tia >> >> -be >> >> >> >> http://www.facebook.com/people/Greg-DeKoenigsberg/513678315 >> >> >> > > Is Greg giving a presentation, having an open discussion, or both? > > If he's giving a presentation, what is the topic? > > > I'm trying to figure out if I can do part of the charlug meeting and visit > with family afterwards. > > Thanks, > Jason > -- = There's always somebody who is paid too much, and taxed too little - and it's always somebody else. - Cullen Hightower Daily Universal Resource Locator: http://en.wikipedia.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://charlug.org/pipermail/charlug/attachments/20090226/94b70255/att= achment.htm From ennis.mccaffrey at twcable.com Fri Feb 27 14:28:13 2009 From: ennis.mccaffrey at twcable.com (McCaffrey, Ennis) Date: Thu Feb 26 23:53:42 2009 Subject: [Charlug] Java Programming Position Message-ID: Hey guys, do you know of anyone interested in a Java programming position whose description may be found below? If so you'll need to register at https://jobs.brassring.com/1033/ASP/TG/cim_home.asp?partnerid=25160&site id=36 and apply for position 111271BR. The fellow who is the manager has a MS in computer science and is heavily into both Java and Oracle so I think this would be a good job for someone into Java coding. Posting Job Title Development Software Engineer Requisition # 111271BR Location United States - North Carolina - Charlotte Area of Interest Engineering/Technical Operations Position Type Full Time Posting Job Description The Time Warner Cable Corporate office currently seeks a Development Software Engineer for our ATG Department. Below please find a brief description of the essential duties and responsibilities required to function successfully in this position. Job Description: Perform software development and maintenance functions for an extremely high transaction rate application. Partner in a team environment but also be able to independently design, develop, code, test and debug new software or make significant enhancements to existing software. Develop scalable and fault tolerant solutions across a distributed architecture. Job Qualifications: * Strong Java, multi-threaded/concurrent, client/server experience and expertise * J2EE,JDBC, XML, XSL, JSP, Servlets, JavaScript required * Application Server Experience: Tomcat * Oracle DB development experience (strong SQL/PLSQL required) * TCP/IP socket programming experience a plus * 3+ yrs extensive hands on software development * Software development experience utilizing Linux platforms * Protocol analysis experience (i.e. network sniffing) * Time-management, decision-making, and organizational skills a must * Familiarity with Agile development * Business Intelligence report writing experience strongly preferred The physical demands described here are those that must be met by an employee to successfully perform the essential functions of this position. Reasonable accommodations may be made to enable individuals with disabilities to perform the essential functions. While performing the duties of this job the employee is: Regularly required to talk and hear; Frequently required to sit, stand and bend at the knee and waist and walk; Required to use hand to type, handle objects and paperwork; Required to reach and hold on to items at chest level or reach above the shoulder; Required to use close vision and be able to focus. Finally, the employee generally works in an indoor office environment; overtime maybe required. Time Warner Cable offers competitive benefits to include medical, dental, vision, a matched 401(k) plan, tuition reimbursement, free cable (in specified areas) and free AOL. Qualified candidates should apply in person using the Time Warner Cable kiosk (where available) or on-line at www.timewarnercable.com. EOE/M/F/D/V Ennis McCaffrey Engineering Product Manager Ennis.McCaffrey@TWCable.COM (704) 731-3914 (office) (704) 322-9263 (mobile) Time Warner Cable 7910 Crescent Executive Drive Charlotte, NC 28217 This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail and any printout. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://charlug.org/pipermail/charlug/attachments/20090227/a82c6cef/attachment.htm From phma at phma.optus.nu Fri Feb 27 22:17:15 2009 From: phma at phma.optus.nu (Pierre Abbat) Date: Fri Feb 27 07:42:46 2009 Subject: [Charlug] Dragonfly BSD Message-ID: <200902272217.17347.phma@phma.optus.nu> Any of you know about Dragonfly? I found it several days ago and downloaded the torrent, and I've noticed a lot of people downloading it. Pierre From bobevans19 at gmail.com Sat Feb 28 02:02:18 2009 From: bobevans19 at gmail.com (Bob Evans) Date: Fri Feb 27 11:27:39 2009 Subject: [Charlug] Dragonfly BSD In-Reply-To: <200902272217.17347.phma@phma.optus.nu> References: <200902272217.17347.phma@phma.optus.nu> Message-ID: <7c5cd1190902272302g3b610d2fy6e06e7c1fd228010@mail.gmail.com> Hey Pierre Long time - no type. I was using it last year for a while. My need was in clustering. Dragonfly is supposed to have native cluster support (probably does by now, they were coding pretty fast last year...) I tried to send in some bugzillas, but had to drop off when work got crazy. I'll check it out, since i'm WAY underemployed since 01/01/09 ended... Thanks for the heads up. -be On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 10:17 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > Any of you know about Dragonfly? I found it several days ago and download= ed > the torrent, and I've noticed a lot of people downloading it. > > Pierre > _______________________________________________ > CharLUG mailing list > CharLUG@charlug.org > http://charlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/charlug > -- = It is only the great men who are truly obscene. If they had not dared to be obscene, they could never have dared to be great. - Havelock Ellis Daily Universal Resource Locator: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbeit_macht_frei "Work shall set you free" --slogan at the entrance to many Nazi death camps... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://charlug.org/pipermail/charlug/attachments/20090228/9eb34b9f/att= achment.htm From bobevans19 at gmail.com Sat Feb 28 02:22:51 2009 From: bobevans19 at gmail.com (Bob Evans) Date: Fri Feb 27 11:48:11 2009 Subject: [Charlug] Fwd: Charlug February Meeting In-Reply-To: <7c5cd1190902272313x7e1f5879te316b6336b3d47a4@mail.gmail.com> References: <7c5cd1190902272313x7e1f5879te316b6336b3d47a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7c5cd1190902272322gcdc6cacy64990f5db310a41f@mail.gmail.com> resending because charlug email bounced me... grrrrr ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Bob Evans Date: Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 2:13 AM Subject: Charlug February Meeting To: "charlug@charlug.org" Cc: Upstate Carolina Linux Users Group , uclug-flpc@googlegroups.com, UNC Charlotte LINUX Users Group List < UNCCLUG@listserv.uncc.edu>, Glen Nelson , Lee Duckworth , Wes Yates , Jack Westmoreland , Judy Hillhouse < judy_hillhouse@yahoo.com>, robert.mcaloon@sungard.com, Angela Di Cocco < adicocco@carolina.rr.com> Last call... Bob Evans says... The February meeting will be on 02/28/09 at the Levine Campus of Central Piedmont Community College from 10AM to ?? on February 28th (I think I already said that...) wih our guest Greg DeKoenigsberg - f= rom Red Hat. His topic will be OLPC - One Laptop Per Child Linux in Schools Fedora and more... -- = It is only the great men who are truly obscene. If they had not dared to be obscene, they could never have dared to be great. - Havelock Ellis Daily Universal Resource Locator: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbeit_macht_frei "Work shall set you free" --slogan at the entrance to many Nazi death camps... -- = It is only the great men who are truly obscene. If they had not dared to be obscene, they could never have dared to be great. - Havelock Ellis Daily Universal Resource Locator: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbeit_macht_frei "Work shall set you free" --slogan at the entrance to many Nazi death camps... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://charlug.org/pipermail/charlug/attachments/20090228/44fa50fa/att= achment-0001.htm From bobevans19 at gmail.com Sat Feb 28 02:46:51 2009 From: bobevans19 at gmail.com (bobevans19@gmail.com) Date: Fri Feb 27 12:12:12 2009 Subject: [Charlug] CATS riders only Message-ID: <0016361e8834dab1ff0463f5c96a@google.com> For Saturday meeting Take 27 to the Dilworth Coffee shop stop in Matthews. (The driver will know= = where that is...) Call for a ride over to Levine campus 704.989.6498 IANAT (I am not a taxi) but they also have them in Matthews,NC, if you = prefer. (My van can fit 1 or 2 bicycles if necessary...) =3D -be -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://charlug.org/pipermail/charlug/attachments/20090228/6027e050/att= achment.htm From phma at phma.optus.nu Sat Feb 28 05:50:28 2009 From: phma at phma.optus.nu (Pierre Abbat) Date: Fri Feb 27 15:15:54 2009 Subject: [Charlug] Anyone use KTorrent? Message-ID: <200902280550.29454.phma@phma.optus.nu> I have some questions which probably can be answered only by someone who's more into torrenting than I am. E.g. Why does "Parts of the torrent which are available" show a random barcode on a torrent I'm seeding? Pierre From bobevans19 at gmail.com Sat Feb 28 07:05:11 2009 From: bobevans19 at gmail.com (bobevans19@gmail.com) Date: Fri Feb 27 16:30:31 2009 Subject: [Charlug] Anyone use KTorrent? In-Reply-To: <200902280550.29454.phma@phma.optus.nu> Message-ID: <000e0cd47bb2be671f0463f96554@google.com> Pierre, Best to just crank it up & leave for a while. Let bit torrent do = its "thang"... Something about a "watched pot never boils..."? -be -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://charlug.org/pipermail/charlug/attachments/20090228/96c04627/att= achment.htm From bobevans19 at gmail.com Fri Feb 27 11:39:18 2009 From: bobevans19 at gmail.com (Bob Evans) Date: Wed Apr 8 02:08:42 2009 Subject: [Charlug] Charlug February Meeting Message-ID: <7c5cd1190902272313x7e1f5879te316b6336b3d47a4@mail.gmail.com> Last call... Bob Evans says... The February meeting will be on 02/28/09 at the Levine Campus of Central Piedmont Community College from 10AM to ?? on February 28th (I think I already said that...) wih our guest Greg DeKoenigsberg - f= rom Red Hat. His topic will be OLPC - One Laptop Per Child Linux in Schools Fedora and more... -- = It is only the great men who are truly obscene. If they had not dared to be obscene, they could never have dared to be great. - Havelock Ellis Daily Universal Resource Locator: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbeit_macht_frei "Work shall set you free" --slogan at the entrance to many Nazi death camps... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://charlug.org/pipermail/charlug/attachments/20090227/bc2652cd/att= achment.htm